You really don’t mean close the US borders so we can’t get out? Just because most people in the US are stupid and just because the people in charge are stupid does not mean the rest of us are. I admit that the majority of America is dumb as hell, but not all of them are, they just aren’t heard from.
– reaper 2006-06-07 00:49 UTC
Sure I do! No offense, but the US are thinking of closing the borders to stop people coming in, and this is only the flip side of the same coin.
To be honest, the world would be much better off without America being a part of it. Let’s look at the evidence:
- Source of most weapons of mass destruction, and only country ever to use one against another coutry, killing 200,000 men, women and children in the biggest mass murder in history at Hiroshima – and an eagerness to do it again.
- 10% of the population consuming around 40% of the world’s resources. That’s waaaay beyond fair. Each US citizen deprives 3 other people from another part of the world as basic food through their over-consumption.
- Attitude to global warming (“who gives a shit”)
- Attitude to AIDS (“we own the patents for the medicines. Ha ha ha”)
- Attitude to African poverty and famine (“where’s Africa? Isn’t that somewhere near Brazil?”)
- Fundamental belief that profit is more important than humanity
- Acceptance of Bush as a “good” leader.
- Willingness to justify torture and the breaking of international law. Repeatedly.
The list goes on. America’s main exports to the rest of the world have been obesity and Michael Jackson. Not exactly a good track record.
No, we want the US borders closed. It’s a big place, and most Amercians wouldn’t even notice as they never leave the place anyway. Sure, there are good and great Amercians, and we’ll miss them, but it’s an acceptable loss.
Let’s call it collateral damage.
– GreyWulf 2006-06-07 08:26 UTC
You really don’t know do you? I don’t blame you though, I mean you live in Europe so the air their effects your thoughts. Lets look at some counter examples. (No hard feelings, and I am not mad at you)
1. The decision to use an atomuc bomb was not made without great care and thought back then. The person who helped make it even regreted making it. (e=mcsq? anyone?) The source of our weapons are due to The Cold War and The Korean War in which case they also possessed them and we were even threatened with the Cuban Missle Crisis. We had one of the greatest presidents handle that without any bloodshed. (JFK) The problem is who is in charge now.
2. There are MANY places in the US where people cut back on resource use and go back to more natural things. Those of us who live here have no choice about the matter as we need these things to function. This is due to our gov. lack of any ability to change this. Again not the common mans fault.
3. Al Gore just made a movie about global warming. There are many enviromental groups raising awarness as well. Again, your basis is on a stereotype and what our idiots in charge are saying.
4. I watched a seminar on Aids and stopping it in Africa with former pres. Bill Clinton present. (on yesterday) They discussed how to fight it and more. Many groups are raising money and support to fight AIDS.
5. Many groups are trying to help Africa. You don’t all the other countries just jumping up to help out now do you? On CNN they had a special on the numerous rapes of women by the army in one country.
6. Again, you are looking at those in charge, namely extreme right wing Republicans and Democrats.
7. Bush’s approval ratings are only around 30% and dropping. The only reason he won again is his bashing on gay marriage, his Christian base, and many other reasons. One major reason is that no one liked Kerry as a democratic candidate. Even so, it was by a slim majority that Bush won. The article you posted before even suggests he won by foul play. Most Americans hate Bush’s administration.
8. Again, only looking at the ignorant red-neck citizens who know shit and our most honorable idiots in office.
Your basis on America is a sweeping generalization based on stereotypes and general ignorance about America. I live here and I know what I say is true. The problem is that all anybody that hates America sees is the side they want to see, even if the other side is almost as large or even larger. Of course it doesn’t help that those in charge perform many ilks for the international viewpoint.
Worse of all, your “collateral damage” is just what some said of the innocents killed by the A-bomb or the war in Iraq. That means you are just like them.
– reaper 2006-06-07 11:08 UTC
Reaper, I’ve both lived and worked in the US, so do feel qualified to comment. Your points are all good, and prove that there is a significant majority of Americans who feel disquiet about the bad name their country has throughout the world. The problem is that majority is doing precious little to change things, other than make a noise. Democracy means nothing if the minority are allowed to rule because of inaction.
Remember, all that’s required for evil to triumph, etc.
Ignorance isn’t ignorance if it’s based upon evidence. Almost 40,000 dead Iraqi civilians are evidence. Guantanamo Bay is evidence. Gun crime, poverty on your own doorstep and an appalling track record on environmental issues are all evidence.
No reaper, I’m not ignorant. I’ve seen if both with my own eyes, and with the eyes of the media, and frankly, I don’t like what I see. A lot of other people feel the same. I’m pretty sure that the American flag is the most burnt in history, both figuratively and literally. It’s a country that claims to be proud of it’s “freedom”, yet it’s a freedom that’s been bought with the wealth and resources the whole world should share.
Go through the list of points I’ve made again. Yes, there are detractors to each point, people in America who disagreed with the A-bomb, with the government’s stance on global warming, poverty, etc. That’s good, and I’m glad they exist – I’m not saying every single American is evil, that would be dumb – but the country as a whole does no favours at all to the rest of the world. It’s a taker, not a giver.
Oh, and my collateral damage comment was irony.
– GreyWulf 2006-06-07 12:11 UTC
As for your comment mocking America’s contributions to the world, here is a list of how wrong you are.
Cotton Gin, Steamboat, First Electro-Magnetic Motor, Telegraph, Cylinder Printing Press, Offset Printing Press, Telephone, Phonograph, Incandescent Light Bulb, Air Conditioning, First Heavier than Air Flight, Panama Canal, Modern Rocket Invented, First Television, First Trans-Atlantic Flight, Frozen Food, Radio Astronomy, Cardiac Defibrillator, Digital Computer, UNIVAC 1 Computer, Heart-Lung Machine , Polio Vaccine, Laser, Computer Operating System , Optical Fiber, Cray Super Computer, Nasa’s Viking I Lands on the Moon, Apple II computer, First Space Shuttle Flight, Genetic Engineering, Hubble Telescope, The Human Genome Project, Top Quark Observed, Galileo Spacecraft reaches Jupiter, need I go on?
Special: Americans volunteer to defend Great Britain
W.M.L. “Billy” Fiske was one of the fir
st Americans to volunteer to fight in Britain, joining the RAF 601 Squadron at Tangarere. His plane was damaged in battle and burned on landing, and Fiske died Aug. 17, the first American in uniform to die in Europe in WWII. More volunteers followed, some led by Col. Charles Sweeney or recruited by the Clayton Knight Committee, and became part of the Eagle Squadrons in the RAF after September 1940.
American led Allied Invasion to liberate Europe begins
The Allied Expeditionary Force of American, British, Canadian, Polish, and Free French troops begins Operation Overlord, the long-awaited invasion of France. After an intensive naval and aerial bombardment, the first wave of 5 divisions (156,115 men) are landed at designated beaches in Normandy named Sword, Juno, Gold, Omaha and Utah.
Victory in Europe Day
VE Day finally arrived on May 8, 1945 after fierce efforts by the American led allied forces. The previous year British, Canadian, and U.S. troops invaded Normandy, and began to drive the Nazis out of France. At the same time, the Soviets were launching their own counter-offensive. They pushed the German army completely out of Europe.
US Brokers Peace Treaty between Egypt and Israel
March 26 – In a ceremony at the White House, President Anwar Sadat of Egypt and Prime Minister Menachem Begin of Israel sign a peace treaty
Arrival of Internet Protocol,
Saturday, January 1, 1983 – the ARPANET officially changes to use the Internet Protocol, creating the Internet.
In other words, your lights, your tv, your phone, even this computer and the internet would not be here without us. Also Germany would have won and you would be under German rule.
– reaper 2006-06-07 12:15 UTC
Don’t lets go there, ok? World War II is a whole ‘nuther subject!
Sounds to me like I’ve hit a nerve
– GreyWulf 2006-06-07 12:25 UTC
This whole discussion is really a matter of comparing two very different cultures, and I have to agree with Reaper that most of the things that happens and have happened in the past is an echo of what the Bush administration have decided.
I’ve seen both the US and Europe from the inside, and there’s a big difference between cultures and the way of living.
And no one is really better than the other.
Both the UK and the US have had their fair share of wars and mistakes in the past, and neither of the governments that are in power today are any better than the other.
As for people in general, most of us are trying to live what we know is an ordinary life. Then there’s stereotypess from both sides.
I think the only thing that you two would agree about though is that the ditch between US and Europe became wider and deeper when Bush decided to attack Iraq.
As for the whole immigration issue…I’ve been an immigrant (and still are). To stop immigration (the legal kind) would be crazy if you ask me. If you keep people in one place, you breed ignorance. If you allow them to experience new cultures, new opportunities are born. That’s the way it works.
And in times like this, ignorance is dangerous.
This is a weird discussion in the first place, because 90% of the population in this country would give their right (or left) arm to be american. At least the younger generation. And most of them have no clue how different life is in the US from around here.
There’s good and bad things no matter where you come from. Believe me, I know. I’ve lived in a lot of places.
– christa 2006-06-07 14:05 UTC
– reaper 2006-06-07 18:57 UTC